Behind The Revenue

Chad Kodary (00:01.61)
What's going on everybody? We are on another episode of Behind the Revenue with my good friend Rachel Miller from Page Wheel. Rachel, we're super excited to have you on today. Just for some quick context of the viewers, where are you from? What do you do? How'd you get here?

Rachel Miller (00:18.588)
Thank you for having me. I love hanging out with you. This, I think a lot of your people might know me from some of my other brands. I grew the business Mula. I also have a media company that runs viral websites and most of them do not have my face on them so no one knows that I exist. And then I started a software company and here I am. I'm also a mom of six and juggling from my little tiny home office, which is like, you're like six foot, like almost ish.

I don't know, I'm five something. So like you look much taller than me. If you put your arms side to side, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to reach both sides of my office. Maybe another foot on each side. It's a tiny little office. And I love being at home and working remotely with my kids. I love that I got to create my own job. So yeah.

Chad Kodary (00:48.012)
Yep.

Chad Kodary (00:54.67)
I'm going to go to bed.

Chad Kodary (01:03.998)
I love that. Now you've I've been following your journey for a while. I know we've been friends. We've been Facebook friends for, for quite a while. Now you you've been on webinars with us. You've done, you've been on challenges that we've done. We we've done a lot of cool stuff together. You were on our last podcast, which is marketers mindset. So, I mean, I think when we were on that podcast, we were actually talking about Mula marketer, which was one of your other brands. Right. So you've come a long way. I've seen you also recently perform on amazing stages like Tony Robbins.

Rachel Miller (01:20.712)
fun.

Rachel Miller (01:24.532)
Yeah.

Rachel Miller (01:32.664)
It's been a blessing.

Chad Kodary (01:32.702)
Right. Which we'll definitely, we'll get into that too. So, so awesome. Um, so, but, but let's rewind really quick. You, you went from being in this marketing space to kind of doing marketing, right? And I know you're doing a lot of like organic style marketing too, to now becoming a software creator. It's a big jump because I did it too. I went from agency owner to software creator, right? Um, I've had tons of people on, like I've had, um,

Rachel Miller (01:49.416)
Yes.

Chad Kodary (02:01.506)
Franco or Biazon. I've had Mikael Dia from Funnellytics. We've had Ross Christofoli from Consolidata, right? All, a lot of these guys, we just interviewed Roger Yelvington from AdLaunch. So a lot of these guys were like agency owners turned software creator, right? So walk me through like one, what made you want to start a software company and two, how's it going? Like, how is it going?

Rachel Miller (02:16.732)
Yeah.

Rachel Miller (02:29.524)
I started a software company because I needed an easy button. And just like the agencies who are manually doing tasks for clients over and over and over again, with my media company, I kind of was my own client. I had lots of different blogs and my business partner had lots of different blogs. And together we were like looking at our products thinking, we have to make, okay, backing up. I have multiple companies. So one company is a media company and it has blogs.

Chad Kodary (02:54.333)
Okay.

Rachel Miller (02:55.016)
The other company, I trained people how to get attention so you could get traffic to your website, just like I was getting millions of page views coming to my own website. So I was using how I got traffic to my website and then I did a training program on it. So as my training program took off, well, that's awesome, and I was getting all this traffic for people, but at the same time, the amount of revenue coming in per traffic when you're dependent on affiliate networks, when you're dependent on Google.

that was going down and down and down. Like Google ad spend I wasn't making as much from. So that was going down and down and down. So while my training software had to get attention to your products was going up, and I was even bringing in more page views, my actual revenue was dropping because affiliate marketing went from like 8% to 4% to 2.9% returns for every dollar sold. So my revenue was dropping. And so the solution to that, which all of us marketers know,

is create your own products, which is awesome, right? The problem is, well, what if you have, like my business partner and I, six different websites that are all getting boo-coos traffic in six different niches, and you now are seeing the writing on the wall, you twiddled your thumbs for far longer than you should have, and now you're not making any money and you've got so much content you're supposed to make. So I was like, okay, no worries, I'm gonna put my marketing company on hold for like three, four months. I'll go...

Chad Kodary (03:55.628)
Yep.

Rachel Miller (04:20.756)
create these products.

We did the math. I would have had to make 47 separate products for us to be able to get all the verticals in our niche, in the six different niches that we had. And so I started. I was like, okay, 47, like, I got this. I can hustle. This will be, this will suck. And I started making the products. But the problem was there were just so many of them. So, yeah. Okay, so like,

Chad Kodary (04:31.383)
Wow.

Chad Kodary (04:44.335)
Just for some quick context, when you say products, give me an example of what do you mean? What type of products are we talking about?

Rachel Miller (04:51.201)
One of our verticals is camping and RV traffic. So like we actually have one of the top websites in RV travel. I don't actually own an RV. I just happened to create the viral website about RVs because I would love to live in a van one day and I'd love to travel the country in an RV. So like for fun, I just started collecting stuff and next thing you know, I have a website on it. It's what I tend to do is when I get, I,

met at my neighbor's cat. Well, so I made a website about it and now it's a viral cat website. So anyways, it's like a habit I have is to create these websites. So one of them is an RV one. Well, now we need an RV camping and travel guide. I need a class, a video series to go along with that. I need a workbook that they can download for 7.99 and an upsell that I can sell them for 37.99. And now I'm making money that beforehand, I would have been making from AdSense. Beforehand, I would have been making from selling

Chad Kodary (05:37.57)
Got you. So the products that you're creating, like

Chad Kodary (05:44.212)
Mmm.

Rachel Miller (05:45.82)
these tubes that you hook your RV up with off of Amazon. Like I would have made money that way, but that revenue had dropped, so I needed to replace it. So I replaced it with my own products, which most of you know make your own products. But in doing this, I needed like 47 products. And I'm like, okay, so I made templates to make the products faster. And so before creating that, before that horrible summer, it would take me like maybe a week.

Chad Kodary (05:55.063)
Got you.

Rachel Miller (06:15.432)
to build a product because I had to like come up with the content, then I had to like write it, then I had to design it or have somebody design it, wait three days for them to return the designs to me, tell them what I didn't like, send it back, get it back again. Then I had to put it onto a sales page, which meant I had to design the sales page, write the sales page, hook up the freaking sales page.

write the email, connect the email, make sure the ad, oh, I just changed my mind about the price. It's not gonna be 7.99 anymore. We started selling really well, now it's 11.99. So I have to go through and change the price in every single fricking spot. And I could never remember where they all were for 47 products. I was starting to like, there has to be an easier way. We were using templates. We were using like copy, like wizards, does that make sense? But...

Chad Kodary (06:54.914)
lose it.

Chad Kodary (07:04.759)
Yeah.

Rachel Miller (07:06.356)
It was still taking me a week to get a product from Idea2Market. Well, when I have 47 of them, and I'm looking at my summer going, I wanted to have this done by next month, not by like next year. Like, no. And so we created PageWheel essentially first for ourselves. And so it was a little wonky at first because we were cool with it. But we created it for ourselves so we could create products like this using AI. And...

it would go in and say, okay, you tell AI, I want a checklist for an RV camping trip. And it says, okay, here's your RV 10 points. And it puts them onto a sheet. It designs them on the page. It writes the paragraph copy. And then it takes that and says, okay, let's make an ad out of that. Let's make an email post. Let's make a video script so you can talk about this page. Let's put that page in a flip book so you can now green screen it and put your face in front of the green screen of the book.

Chad Kodary (07:54.593)
Oh, cool.

Rachel Miller (08:03.588)
And now next thing you know, we were able to make products in four minutes. That's if you don't make any edits, but it was in four minutes.

Chad Kodary (08:09.87)
Do you, do you feel like, do you, or most of the products that you're creating, one either lead magnets or two, like trip wires upsells, like a lot of like small, like really quick things that you can kind of just get out into market and start selling right away.

Rachel Miller (08:23.508)
That's how I created them, but then our users are actually using them for like full courses because they'll make a course workbook with 12 different pages and then have a 12 week series and they have a different page for each section. And then they deliver, here's the class, pay me 197 for this 12 week whatever. And then they have a video matched with each one. And so then they have a second handout that they give 12 in a row of. So now we're seeing.

Well, I created it for my lead magnets and my tripwires. We're actually seeing people use it for full blown courses, which we're not a course system, but yeah, we're actually seeing people use it that way.

Chad Kodary (09:00.83)
It's always fun to s-

It's always fun to create something because when we created dash, like we have a very similar story we created usually most in fact, every software creator that I've had on the podcast so far created a tool that they were using for themselves first and then kind of resold eventually cause they were like, holy shit, other people can use this too. This is cool. Right. So it's always fun because you create something for yourself first and then you give it to like a thousand people and they're like, okay, well what do you guys think about it? And they start using it completely differently.

Rachel Miller (09:21.221)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chad Kodary (09:32.638)
on the difference and basically the way that you were using it. And it's, and you, you start seeing all of these different use cases and then you get light bulb moments and start creating new stuff and new features. And, and that's where like all the fun stuff happens. Right. So, so quick question. When did you launch the software last May? Okay. Cool. How many users are you? Is that a public number? Are we allowed to share?

Rachel Miller (09:45.52)
It is really fun, yeah.

Rachel Miller (09:50.256)
Last May. We're just under a thousand right now, but remember we haven't been able to, oh, the rest of the audience doesn't know this. We got a trademark wrist lap, so we had to rebrand. We were the brand busy and we had to rebrand and now we're PageWheel and everybody cross your fingers and pray that we can please, please get the trademark for PageWheel. So we are now PageWheel. And so there was a little bit of a time in there where we couldn't sell and that was.

Chad Kodary (10:03.438)
It's always fun.

Rachel Miller (10:19.976)
little frustrating.

Chad Kodary (10:20.846)
Okay. And what do you charge for a page wheel? What's like the different pricing models with like kind of one price and you're in

Rachel Miller (10:28.008)
It's $27 a month, and then you can upsell to our $47 a month program, and that just gives you access to more products and programs. I think the majority of businesses, if you're just running a couple of lead magnets, 27's more than sufficient for you.

Chad Kodary (10:42.05)
Cool. So how did you get the thousand users? That's always a fun topic. You just emailed your list, huh? Are you, are you running any ads to it? Are you doing any viral marketing?

Rachel Miller (10:46.213)
I just see them on my list.

Pretty much, yep. I just emailed my list.

Rachel Miller (10:56.748)
No ads, no viral marketing at this time. We were getting ready to think about doing ads and viral because we had fixed our core bugs. So just so people know, whenever you build a software company, so we started building it January, then we had bug, we had a little bit of test users, I think we had a couple hundred of test users. And we built it then.

Chad Kodary (11:00.216)
Wow.

Rachel Miller (11:23.408)
So we built it from January to May. In May, we released it to like people to buy and then we found the real bugs. So we thought we had bugs before. The initial bugs were things like, oh, you don't have a back button. In May, we had the bugs of, oh, somebody uploaded an image that's 51,000 pixels wide. Like you could put this on a billboard on the side of the road and not have it be pixelated.

think someone could do that and they shut down the site for four days because we didn't like it like so like we had all of those things that we found out like oh yeah we're like yeah we still have them but at the time like it was almost unusable from May to like July to be completely honest because as we let people in the product didn't scale um and we just didn't know yeah we didn't know what we were doing.

Chad Kodary (11:55.191)
Wow.

Chad Kodary (11:58.631)
We had them. We had a bunch of them too. We still have them. There's no software that's perfect.

Chad Kodary (12:11.906)
like a little beta. It's just beta. Yeah, it's a beta. I'd like I launched our software six years ago. I had no clue. I didn't know anything. I'm a marketing dude. Right. I'm a marketing person. So like I've been doing marketing since 2009. I've had a marketing since 2009. I didn't have a software right. So like going into the software space was crazy. But yeah.

Rachel Miller (12:19.092)
I'm sorry.

Rachel Miller (12:34.476)
I've never done software before and I'm a mom at home! Like, what was I thinking?

Chad Kodary (12:37.17)
Yeah. But look what happened. It worked. It worked.

Rachel Miller (12:40.52)
I know. So yeah, so we were able then from May to July, we didn't really, we weren't trying to sell then, we were actually trying to be like, don't sign up, just, yeah, guys, it's kind of broken. Then from July to October, we were selling just organically with my list. And I was like, oh, it's there, we're ready to sell. And then we got the wrist slap of, you're not allowed to sell under that brand name. And then we have to like find a new brand and then rebrand and then change everything. So yeah, that's been fun.

Chad Kodary (12:51.34)
Yeah.

the

Chad Kodary (13:09.99)
Oh, that's always fun. So what, what do you, what's your next kind of step? So you're at about a thousand users and where do you see yourself taking this? Like now that let's say you hopefully are done with all the trademark stuff and you can start selling again, right? Um, are you planning on just continue to hit it? Your list? Are you planning on running ads? Are you planning on doing like viral videos? I know you're the queen of viral, uh,

Rachel Miller (13:22.524)
Yeah, we can.

Rachel Miller (13:30.608)
We have a whole, we're gonna try all of it. I mean, we've got ads that we're getting ready to start running. They'll most likely, they'll start running in the middle of March. So about the time that this show comes out, we'll probably have maybe five or six weeks worth of ads up. And podcast episodes like this, having affiliates help us if they want to. We have a 30% affiliate. But my ultimate goal is to sell this because I think that it would be a great activator for another product.

Chad Kodary (13:47.435)
Love it.

Rachel Miller (13:58.992)
So what I mean by that is like any course system out there. Well, the problem that course creators have is that it takes so much time to build the course before they have their fast win. Well, if they put a lead magnet system in there that they could instantly, while they're building their course, start bringing in their attendees for their full-time course program, that would be like a great activator for a product that has a lot of people in it.

Chad Kodary (13:59.138)
Hmm

Rachel Miller (14:23.004)
So our ultimate goal is to sell because I want to keep my lifestyle of working in my tiny office with my six kids. And I know my company won't be able to grow to the size I think it's capable of growing with me living this continued delivery of this lifestyle.

Chad Kodary (14:23.038)
At what point?

Chad Kodary (14:36.094)
Yeah, what's like the goal? Like how many users would you need to get to before you flip the switch? And they're like, okay, it's time. Ready to go.

Rachel Miller (14:43.148)
We're hoping to get to about 3,000. We're actually already in talks with three different business brokers, who one of them will get our business to broker the sale. And we're actually, have already been approached by four different companies. So we'll see. I know, we'll see.

Chad Kodary (14:56.826)
Oh, good for you. And you know, you know that, uh, if your metrics are good, you know, SaaS sales are usually 10 X, uh, essentially. So I mean 3000 users. Yeah.

Rachel Miller (15:08.156)
Yeah. We're hoping for a strategic buyer, because I think a strategic buyer will take care of our users the best, but we'll see. A PE firm would obviously give us the 10x multiple, but it'd be nice if we could have a strategic buyer to care for our people going forward.

Chad Kodary (15:24.186)
Agreed. All right. So I have some selfish questions, questions that I want to ask this, this could become this part of the podcast that I always want to know. Um, one, um, how did you get on, uh, Tony Robbins event? How do you become a speaker at the event of events? Like how does it happen?

Rachel Miller (15:28.796)
Go for it. I'm gonna open a book.

Rachel Miller (15:39.753)
Ha ha ha!

Rachel Miller (15:44.156)
Honestly, they're just really good to me. I don't I don't know um

I love my people and I think they can tell that I love my people. And they're just amazing humans. I didn't seek out that stage. I didn't, I've never, I've never like tried to get on it. But yeah, I spoke alongside Tony Robbins and Dean Graciosi five times, four or five times, I'm pretty sure it's five times now. And I still, they first found me.

because I spoke for Digital Marketer and they found me through Digital Marketer. And then I spoke on behalf of Russell Brunson at ClickFunnels and what was it called? Funnel Hacker, Funnel Hacker? Funnel Hacking? Yeah, Funnel Hacking Live, I spoke on that. And I think those openings led to me speaking for them or it may have been Louis Howe because Louis Howe was one of the people on Graziosi's stage. But no, I've been...

Chad Kodary (16:35.498)
Federal Hacking Life.

Rachel Miller (16:49.24)
super blessed by all the people.

Chad Kodary (16:51.406)
What is it always the same? Is it the same presentations that you're doing? You know, you spoke a couple of times there, or are you talking about different things or is there like a specific topic? What do they have you speak on?

Rachel Miller (16:59.54)
Oh, it's pretty much the same thing. Honestly, it's helping moms believe that it's possible. Just yesterday, I was listening to this Steph shirt of a man talk about how women can't do tech. And this is on a major news radio. Like it's like a subs, it's like a regular like.

Chad Kodary (17:10.774)
That's cool, okay.

Chad Kodary (17:23.821)
crazy.

Rachel Miller (17:27.32)
one of those acronyms that everybody watches on TV. And it's a man on the show and he's saying, women can't do tech and women that they're, anyways, I wanted to talk to the woman in that audience who says, I can't do this because I've never had training. I can't do this because I have a really busy life. I have too many kids. I can't do this because one of my kids has medical special needs. And if you knew how crazy my life was, I could never do that.

I can't do it because I don't wanna work in a 300 person office. Like I don't wanna grow that kind of company. I will actually just wanna work from like a little company. I don't want, I like to speak to that person and say, girl, you can totally do it all. You can totally, you can totally run a company in your 10 by 10 office and be a bad ass at it. You can totally make more money than your husband while still.

being available to take your kids to the orthodontist and pick them up from school and go to the parent teacher conferences. You can have a whole huge massive Facebook following and never show your face on it. And they don't even know you who you are because you're making fun of your neighbor's cat and you're selling lawnmowers, not lawnmowers. That audience sells vacuum cleaners. Anyways, I wanted to speak to those moms who felt like they couldn't, that something was stopping them from.

being productive or reaching their goals or getting their dreams. And that's because that was me. And by God's grace, I didn't look at the walls and said, no, like I have to be home because I have six kids. I have to be home because one of my kids has medical needs. I have to be home because like, who's gonna take the kids to the parent conferences, the doctor's appointments, dah, dah. I can't have a traditional job, but that doesn't mean I can't make a ton of money.

That doesn't mean I can't be productive. That doesn't mean I can't do things I love. And I just get, can I hear all the, yeah, so. And.

Chad Kodary (19:21.226)
I love that. I love that message. Because there's a lot of people, there's a lot of there's a lot of people like that. A lot. Yeah.

Rachel Miller (19:29.944)
Yeah. And it's not just women. It's probably men too that also have that feeling of I'm trapped. I don't think that's a female thing. I think that's like a human condition thing. Just for me, I like speaking to the moms because they're just my people. Yeah. And so when a guy said on the video like that yesterday, the news stage or that women can't be a tech, I was like, whatever, are you talking about? Like, I have never built a software thing in our life. And you know, I have a software company. You bug off.

Chad Kodary (19:33.759)
It's both, yeah, for sure.

Chad Kodary (19:42.946)
Well, you can connect with them really well and your message relates, yeah. So I think it's great.

Chad Kodary (19:53.494)
Like I got a thousand users. What are you talking about? All right. So another question I have when, first of all, what was the largest audience that you spoke in front of? I'm assuming obviously it was probably Tony Robbins event, right? How many people were watching 1.3 million people at the same time watching. I'm going to repeat that and I'm going to mark this clip so we can get this for later.

Rachel Miller (20:10.868)
I think they had 1.3 million people watch me.

Rachel Miller (20:17.085)
Yes.

Rachel Miller (20:21.172)
pretty sure that's what they had said, yes.

Chad Kodary (20:23.25)
1.3 million eyeballs on you at the same time.

Rachel Miller (20:26.284)
Um, they weren't watching me. Um, I was headlining right before Matthew McConaughey. And so they all came on to hear Matthew McConaughey and I was on right before Matthew, so they kind of came in to hear him.

Chad Kodary (20:33.545)
Oh.

But still.

Chad Kodary (20:40.146)
Yeah. The lark, the largest, the largest amount of eyeballs that I've had on me speaking is a couple of thousand. I cannot imagine what a couple hundred thousand or even over a million eyeballs feels like. Can you tell me like what you were feeling before you jumped on, were you doing this remote or you flew into like their whole thing with like all the screens and all that? Yeah. What's that feeling like? I would have thrown up too.

Rachel Miller (20:59.496)
Oh no, I fly in for it. I threw up. It's just, I get, but here's the thing though. I get nervous when I'm speaking on a stage of 1.3 million people, but I also get nervous speaking on this stage. I get nervous speaking on any stage and I hear people say, well, it gets better the more you do it or, it's just who I am. And so I'm gonna get nervous. And I just started embracing it and saying,

Chad Kodary (21:14.124)
Yeah.

Chad Kodary (21:23.182)
There's always nerves.

Rachel Miller (21:29.168)
Um, you hate it while you're doing it. You hate it before you do it, but afterwards, you're really glad that you hopefully impacted one person's life.

Chad Kodary (21:37.578)
Yeah. Well, the fact that you were able to speak to that many people at the same time with an inspiring message is amazing. Like that's, that's yeah, that's amazing. So over a million people and is how long do you go on for usually?

Rachel Miller (21:45.492)
It's been a blast.

Rachel Miller (21:55.212)
Most of my speaking sessions, I think the longest I've ever spoken on any stage has been Oh other than digital marker, which once had me for eight hours that day, which was a brutal day I'm not doing that again And the most I usually speak is like 90 minutes and that's like for like workshops Jen my shortest speaking engagements are like 20 minutes. So 20 minutes to 20 minutes and 90 minutes. I'm usually happiest 40 minutes

Chad Kodary (22:03.334)
oh my god

Chad Kodary (22:13.806)
Got you.

Rachel Miller (22:19.7)
20 minutes to 40 minutes is my like sweet spot. I feel like I can make an impact in someone's life in less than 90 minutes. 90 minutes starts to get a little long. Eight hours is just, no, I'm not doing that again. Yeah.

Chad Kodary (22:27.314)
Yeah. Eight hours is insane. My God. And all right. Wow. Okay. A lot to, a lot to unravel here. Uh, and then now going into, I'm going to complete, take a right turn here because another question that I am always wondering, because it's something that we're working on now at Dash Flix and I feel like we're trying to do it. We're, we're kind of at the stage where we want to create these viral videos, right? And we all, we all as business owners and entrepreneurs, we're like, I just want a viral, just

Just do something to get this video viral. Give me more than like 2000 views. Like how do I get it? How do I get a video to go viral? Like is there like some type of like.

template or strategy or framework or can you share with me how I can and I'll give you a perfect example. Like if you were in my shoes, right? Because what we do is after these podcasts, we chop them up and we turn them into reels, right? And I've seen tons of reels from podcasts go super viral, right? Even even podcasts that might not be like, you know, Gary Vee podcasts and stuff like that, right?

Rachel Miller (23:21.853)
Mm-hmm.

Chad Kodary (23:31.83)
How does somebody like myself that doesn't have millions of followers yet, how does somebody like myself get videos to go viral on places like Tik Tok, IG reels, Facebook reels? Like, how do I do that? What's the secret?

Rachel Miller (23:46.836)
So there's a couple of things you're gonna wanna do. One, you're gonna wanna think of staging the real with a curiosity element or an entertainment element. And what I mean by that is like, just our faces talking, like people don't know who I am, people don't know who you are. They honestly don't care what stage I spoke on, but they do care about like, what kind of drama is there? Like this mom.

Chad Kodary (24:06.082)
They do, yeah.

Rachel Miller (24:14.698)
1.3 million people saw this mom on stage and she wishes no one knew she existed and be like and half and half of them didn't even know she was like you know have some type of like

Chad Kodary (24:24.03)
Now when you're saying that, is that a caption or is that like on the actual video? Gotcha. Okay.

Rachel Miller (24:28.98)
It has to be on the words on the screen, on the image. So you have to have some type of curiosity hook. And then notice too, I'm doing a lot of this. So if it was a real, the talking heads doesn't really do it for real. But if I did something like, and then I made, so that tends to have, you need to have some more fluidity to it. I like to add fluidity or some type of motion within the first like,

Chad Kodary (24:48.798)
uh... will be moving for the rest of the podcast okay

Rachel Miller (24:58.576)
1.5 to three seconds. So it's like, cause right when they're scrolling past it, it has to catch some of their attention. So you need to get a scroll stop pretty soon in. So a scroll stop, you have to have curiosity. You have to be on a topic that's easy to index so they know what you're about, so they can drive you to the right people. You have to have views in the first 24 hours. So this is most important on TikTok, but also on YouTube. YouTube, you can see it pretty clearly.

If a video gets views in the first 24 hours, then YouTube will say, oh, it's ranking, we're gonna push more traffic out to it next week. Yeah, yeah, of course. So we posted one of the links that we created for the first podcast on YouTube. We were curious, we wanted to try something to help us validate our views, right? So we asked people to do it.

Chad Kodary (25:34.382)
Can I tell you a funny story about, about this topic right here? Um, so we posted, um, we posted, uh, one of, one of the reels that we created from one of the first podcasts that we shot, we were like, screw it. I just want to just try something. So we went to opus.ai, right? Which you might be familiar with. Um, and all we did is we're like, we're just, let's see if this thing works. Right? We go, we got it. We chopped up a bunch of videos, uh, and they like rank it between the ones that they think are going to go viral and out. And we grabbed the top video, right? And I threw a little quick headline on it.

Rachel Miller (25:53.783)
But I'll just let you see if this thing works. So here we go.

Chad Kodary (26:04.336)
It was something that was called like the future of AI or something like AI related, which AI super trending right now. Right. And I posted it on, um, our social media posting tool and then it do a Gora post we use and it just syndicated out to, you know, tick tock and IG, all those different places. Right. And I'm looking at my tick tock. I'm looking at the, I posted it and they go next door to my, one of my co-founders offices talking for like five minutes about something I come back and I see 300 views and I'm like, Oh my God.

Our videos going viral, right? And then like, I keep like refreshing on my profile and I'm like, another 40 views, another 80 views. And like, it started going all the way up and I was like, literally like 30, 40 minutes later, right? Like 900 views. And I, and I know it's not a lot, but I'm like, Oh my God. And I started running around the office. I'm like, guys, I think our video is going viral. Right. And then it stopped. It stopped. So what happened was it like literally like it.

Rachel Miller (26:46.312)
Nice.

Rachel Miller (26:54.222)
I love it.

Oh.

Chad Kodary (27:01.77)
kept doing that for like maybe like two or three hours. And then it just stopped at like a thousand something views. Right. And I was like, and then even the day later, I was like, it's just done. That's it. Like the TikTok gods didn't send it out.

Rachel Miller (27:13.176)
So you may have flagged because they weren't watching it for very long.

Chad Kodary (27:16.69)
Maybe that's okay.

Rachel Miller (27:18.62)
So you have to have a combination of people watching it and watching it through the content. So if you don't get them to, if they just watch for a second and then they bail, then it's not gonna hook their attention and keep them for longer. If they're not clicking on it, they're not taking any other additional engagements. So the first was curiosity, second was you have to have like something to interrupt the feed, some flair.

Chad Kodary (27:24.93)
Gotcha.

Rachel Miller (27:42.592)
The third one was that views the first 24 hours. And then the last one is that you need to have additional types of engagement. So that's comments, that's shares, that's clicks while they're on the screen, clicks to things, that's embedding it.

Chad Kodary (27:55.69)
And you can't tell people to do that. You can't tell people, like, click the like button if you like, because that's kind of cheesy, right? People don't do that anymore. Or do they? I don't know.

Rachel Miller (28:02.376)
Yeah, but if you because nobody likes being bossed around Do you want somebody to tell you to click something or would you like them to say? Hey, I bet your sister needs to hear about this too. And you're like actually, you know what? Yeah, I do want to tell my sister the good juice and So there's ways to say it without being bossy people like sharing people like being helpful to others people like Reciprocating like if it makes your day like to have a like they want to give you a like But they don't want to be told what to do

Chad Kodary (28:05.726)
Yeah, exactly. I agree.

Chad Kodary (28:12.414)
Hmm, okay.

Chad Kodary (28:30.732)
Yeah.

Rachel Miller (28:30.76)
they want to kind of be implied what to do.

Chad Kodary (28:33.442)
So like when I'm creating, like, let's go back to the context of me, uh, creating this podcast. Right. So like if you were my shoes going back, right. Like, and let's say this podcast, real, uh, this podcast episode was done. What, what do you usually do when you're producing videos? Do you, are you using AI like opus and things like that? Or you, do you have a video editor that's like going through the whole podcast and grabbing like that one 45 second, amazing this clip, editing it, and then like posting it like what, or is there like an easier way to do this stuff?

Rachel Miller (29:04.032)
Um, well, I don't have a podcast anymore. So there's that I've been working on my software company. So I haven't really, yeah. So no, it's just me and two employees. Like, um, we have a really tiny little team and I kind of wanted to keep it that way. So that's why I haven't grown, grown my business. I did actually one time have, um, 15 employees and I was spent all my time juggling and managing my employees. And that just wasn't a pleasant.

Chad Kodary (29:07.07)
Okay. Any videos though? It could be not even be a podcast. Just any videos. Is there like a whole production team?

Chad Kodary (29:22.126)
I love it.

Rachel Miller (29:33.016)
life experience. No, no, I did not. I did not become a CEO to have team a team. I came to CEO to run my own company. And so for me, having employees was a struggle. That said, with AI tools now, you don't have to create the you don't have to have a huge development team. You don't have to have all of these things.

Chad Kodary (29:33.598)
not a lot of people like that i'd just interview jill urway who yeah

Chad Kodary (29:52.99)
I don't want any team. I don't like it's like on the production side. Um, and, and I'm just like, and I, I told this episode a couple of times this podcast, I'll tell you too, but like, and we'll tell everybody else, like my goal for this year is to simplify things. So like, it might look like I'm in a cool podcast room with like all this lighting, but like if you zoom out of this frame, there's like six of these blocks behind me with a little light under me and a podcast mic hooked up to my desk. And when I'm done, I just throw this podcast mic up.

Rachel Miller (30:16.617)
Nice.

Chad Kodary (30:22.884)
computer desk and I'm back to work. Right. And I, we have a full blown studio with tens of thousands of dollars in equipment. You've seen it. Uh, we've done challenges and stuff and you've been like, I don't want to do that stuff because it's, it's too much. It's too much of a production. It's not fun. I'd rather just be in and out and go continue with my day. So like that's been one of my big goals this year and it's been working great. I was able to shoot 15 podcasts in the last two weeks and it hasn't really disrupted my like work environment. Right.

Rachel Miller (30:24.091)
Nice!

Rachel Miller (30:30.768)
Yeah.

Chad Kodary (30:52.146)
Um, I've been able to shoot, I shot like 30 or 40 Facebook ads in the last couple of weeks, this whole new setup is like a month, a month and a half old, right? So it's a month new, right? So, but yeah, I'm like, my goal is just to simplify things. I don't, I don't, and that's why I asked the question. I was like, right now, I just want to find a way to like get good quality content. Like edited. And I'm thinking like opus.ai tried some other ones, but Opus seems to be like the one that's pretty decent and the script. Yeah.

Rachel Miller (30:52.169)
I love it.

Rachel Miller (30:59.889)
I love it!

Rachel Miller (31:16.552)
Descript is good. I personally also like B12, which is a video thing that makes you look a little prettier. I tend not to put makeup on. I did splurge and put lipstick on before I came on with you, but typically I'm not a, oh crap, I should probably do a Facebook Live and oh crap, my hair's a wreck and I'm not wearing any makeup. And so B12 makes me look like I'm wearing makeup. It's a girl thing.

Chad Kodary (31:23.482)
Okay, B12. So...

Chad Kodary (31:39.274)
Okay. So, so, okay. I mean, I'll try to get a little blush on me.

Rachel Miller (31:45.647)
You might like it. Anyways, it just brightens things up just a smidge.

Chad Kodary (31:51.178)
So, so my goal is my, and tell me if I'm on a good path or not, or what you would, if you would change anything. Cause I'm always curious. Um, my goal is if I shoot like a 45 minute podcast, I want to just get seven. If I can, I'm not going to just throw crap at the wall. Right. I want to just get seven good reels out of it that are like between 30 to 60 seconds.

Right. And that way I can just post one every day. And my goal is to just have one real syndicated everywhere once a day for the next 365 days or however long I want to do this for. Right. That's kind of my goal. Do you see his volume also like a play here? Like the people that post more

Rachel Miller (32:14.106)
Okay.

Rachel Miller (32:29.16)
The only downside I see that is why should someone follow you on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook if you're posting the same thing every day on each channel.

Chad Kodary (32:38.047)
Okay. So what's the strategy? What do you do there?

Rachel Miller (32:41.184)
I would post something different on each place. So I would, well, not necessarily. You post number one on channel. So like, oh, let me get a, I'm getting a trusty post. Now, oh, are people gonna be able to hear this or just see this? Is that, cause now that I'm thinking about it.

Chad Kodary (32:44.822)
that requires more work.

Chad Kodary (32:53.394)
I see what you're saying though.

Chad Kodary (32:57.855)
uh... well we're going to be posting them on youtube also

Rachel Miller (33:00.888)
Okay, so, and sorry, my daughter, I have a thing where my kids can go through and undo my do not disturb. So if my daughter calls again, I'll try to figure that one out. Okay, so like you've got four different, like you've got TikTok, you've got LinkedIn. I'm just pulling them off the, okay. Oh, it's a little fuzzy guys, but whatever. You got Facebook, you have Instagram. So you're gonna post video one on TikTok. So this is day one.

Chad Kodary (33:09.87)
I'm going to go to bed.

No worries.

Chad Kodary (33:23.915)
Yeah, you're good.

Rachel Miller (33:30.192)
This is day two and day three, day four. So you got your week, right? You've got seven videos. So one video goes here, video two, video three, video four, video five, video six, video seven, video one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, two. Now each channel has something different each day.

So if they're following you on TikTok, they got video one that day, and if they're following you on Facebook, they got a different video. So now there's a reason for them to follow you on both places.

Chad Kodary (34:05.462)
Now, do you post? So that does that mean that tick tock would only get one post a week if I did or whatever, like one post every couple of days?

Rachel Miller (34:11.38)
So video one that you put on TikTok, tomorrow you put video two on TikTok and video two that you put on LinkedIn, you put video six on LinkedIn the next day. Video three, next day you put seven. You don't have to go in order.

Chad Kodary (34:14.402)
Yeah.

Chad Kodary (34:17.875)
I see what you're saying.

Chad Kodary (34:21.998)
Mmm.

Chad Kodary (34:26.675)
Gotcha. So just mix up the videos basically on the channels. Don't post the same video on multiple channels.

Rachel Miller (34:31.496)
Just don't post at the same time, at the same day, in the same place. Because if your reader's following you in both places, they'll feel like I just saw that content.

Chad Kodary (34:34.487)
Yeah.

Chad Kodary (34:39.254)
Got you. I like that. And is there like a like a rule of thumb that you go by for like when to post? Like should I do a post in the mornings, afternoons? Like, or is it just kind of like...

Rachel Miller (34:48.976)
Each audience is different. My audience likes to watch, look at content early in the mornings and then late in the afternoons because there tend to be moms, they start work in the morning, so they'll get on with their coffee, they'll go through their social stuff and then they go get to work, right? And then in the afternoons, when they're doing school pickup and they're winding down for the day, they also will browse while they're doing something. Like at their kids' soccer game, they might be browsing social. They'll even browse late at night. So I tend to post...

morning and late afternoon. But again, that depends on your audience. Everybody's audience is different. I've noticed some young audiences or audience with lots of reels, night is an amazing time for reels. People watch reels. Yeah.

Chad Kodary (35:22.346)
Yeah. Well, ours were.

Chad Kodary (35:31.17)
That's when I watch I'm usually like after the kids are sleeping and everybody's done eating and like all that the day is done basically I'll hang out for like a half hour you know at like 10 11 at night scroll through some reels and knock out.

Rachel Miller (35:45.188)
And knowing that though, you have to make sure that you have some type of subcaptioning and like something visually to keep people whenever they're not listening. Because most people watching Reels, especially in bed, they don't necessarily have their iPods in. And so they're not hearing it, they're just seeing it.

Chad Kodary (36:02.094)
gotcha all the videos that we've posted so Opus does do the subtitles which is great they like do the auto subtitles now they just released a feature that I just joined the waiting list for hopefully it comes out but it's a auto AI generated b-roll so based on what you're saying they'll throw in some b-roll just kind of spice up the video a little bit like I think like the goal for me is like how can I just give you my thing that I produce you just give me stuff back

Rachel Miller (36:18.322)
Nice!

Chad Kodary (36:30.458)
And then I just go and post it on that thing and we get viewers. Like that's all I wanted. I don't want to, I don't want to create like hours of work for people to, to edit videos and chop it up. I just want to find the easiest way to do it so I can just keep moving on with my day and still make a good impact and get viewers and all that. So that's kind of been my goal. Um, what is, what is fun question here? What is the most viral video that you've ever created?

Rachel Miller (36:59.16)
It was actually the one of me full. I don't know if this is the most viral, but it's the one I got the most attention for. I folded my laundry on national public television. I had over a million people watch me in one day, fold my, oh no, first I've made the video on my channel of me folding laundry. And at the time I had triplets that were like three, and they kept undoing all the laundry. So like.

they kept just messing with the laundry. It was just this huge nightmare. So I made laundry, I've made a way to fold it so that it wouldn't come undone when the kids would mess with the laundry stack. And so it would stay folded. And so I did that mostly whenever I travel because it's a pain to like constantly repack your stuff to try to make it all fit into the spot. The kids dressers I didn't do this for, but whenever I travel, so I was showing people how you can fold laundry and have it not come unfolded.

Chad Kodary (37:45.367)
Yep.

Rachel Miller (37:53.532)
and I showed them on my video and I made it go to like, I think it was a million people in a day. And then when it was by a million people in a day, it got picked up by Good Morning America. And so Good Morning America flew me out to fold my laundry on national television. So good times. Yeah, my laundry has literally been public.

Chad Kodary (37:59.177)
Ow.

Chad Kodary (38:11.095)
That is great.

Chad Kodary (38:15.922)
And do you what like that type of exposure? Is it like what type of exposure is that like, because that's like a really random thing? Okay, it was just like a fun thing. Yeah.

Rachel Miller (38:23.74)
did nothing for me, did nothing for me. I didn't make any money from that. What it did help me with was at the time, people thought of me as a stay at home mom. And so like, I would have family members who'd be like, come pick me up from the airport. I'm like, I have work to do, get a cab, get an Uber. This is the thing, you can get an Uber and I got work. I can't just drop everything and come pick you up. And they're like, oh no, you can, cause you're at home. So we're like, people would just like.

Chad Kodary (38:39.694)
Hehehe

Rachel Miller (38:51.432)
like my husband's boss at the time, he's a super sweet guy, but I think he thought I was like selling lipstick from my garage for like an MLM. He didn't realize what I was like, that I had a real business. And so when I would want my husband to kind of take up the kids, he'd be like, well, why doesn't your wife do it? Me going on national television shut all that off. And they're like, oh, Rachel works. But it didn't actually make me more money. It just helped people in my real life realize I work.

Chad Kodary (39:19.422)
What, what about videos that you've produced? What videos have you produced that have actually created income for you, for your business?

Rachel Miller (39:27.06)
I have loads of them. They're usually not the virals though. Virals bring you an audience that likes you and it becomes aware of you. You need to have a followup sequence that drives someone to a conversion. So the videos that would convert, I might get 30,000 views or 40,000 views. But I made, like I can think of one video, I made like a million dollars off those 30,000 views. Why? Because I got them first to come to my website. I got them to engage on content. And then I had...

Chad Kodary (39:30.166)
Really?

Rachel Miller (39:53.712)
like the video that had, here's all your questions about this product. It was my highest converting by dollar video. But if I just sent that video to the world, nobody would buy my product. Like you have to have the sequence, yeah.

Chad Kodary (40:02.998)
This was a viral like organic video that you posted.

Rachel Miller (40:07.164)
So I post an organic video to say, calling all course creators, you know you're a course creator when you're, da da, but there's no link, there's nothing on it, it's just telling people I know you're a course creator. Then the next video is, here's five things you can do to fix something in your program. So now they're, one, oh, she understands course creators, two, she's giving me help, three, let's entertain them some more, get them connected to my brand, four, tell them who I am, my values, oh.

Here I am with my kids. It's a journey. You can't.

Chad Kodary (40:36.086)
So it's like a journey. But how do you create a journey? And maybe I'm illiterate with the social media, so how do you create a journey with cold viewers, like people that are not already following you? Like, how do you get them to see this video and then like that video?

Rachel Miller (40:52.136)
Viral gets people to follow you. Then you get people, you take an audience, look at an audience, create an audience based on the people who watched the viral. Then you send them to your video of how to do X, Y, Z. Now, if they've watched this and they've watched your how-to video, then you send them to here's who I am and how I love you and how you're gonna love working with me and here's the values of who I am. So now they believe in the niche.

They believe in the topic. They believe in me. Now I just need them to believe in themselves. So I drive them through. If they watch video one, then I'll drive them to video two. They watch video two, then I create an audience of that and I drive them to video three. If they watch a video of one and two, then I'll drive them to video four. I usually have like five or six videos and by like four, it's anyone who watched any of the previous ones, five, anyone who watched the last three. So it's like.

Chad Kodary (41:50.518)
Just so I understand. So, so like, I know like with Facebook ads as an example, I can target somebody who's watched, you know, 50% of this video. So is that what you're referring to? Oh, you're talking about ads. Okay. I thought you were taught. You lost me for a sec. I got you.

Rachel Miller (41:50.681)
So that way they see the over and over again.

Rachel Miller (42:00.412)
And that's exactly it. Yeah, so I have ads that do the conversions. Ads do the conversions, viral marketing builds the audience. So I don't have to use Facebook to retarget cold audience. I have a warm audience, it's almost endless that I can drive ads to whenever I want to try.

Chad Kodary (42:10.093)
Oh.

Chad Kodary (42:17.09)
So you just for context for the viewers, make sure nobody's confused. So what you're doing is you are posting a bunch of videos on the social media channels. Yeah. Photos. Yeah. And this is on a personal page or business page.

Rachel Miller (42:24.724)
and photos and conversation starters.

Rachel Miller (42:30.716)
business page, personal page, Facebook groups, Instagram, TikTok, Reels, short.

Chad Kodary (42:35.374)
cool. And you can basically create audiences out of people that engage with those posts, whether it's likes, comments, video views, things like that, and then create an audience out of it. And then you run ads to that audience because they already know, like, and trust you. And now you're just selling that thing with an ad.

Rachel Miller (42:52.388)
And you remember back in like AI or not AI, iOS, when iOS 17 rolled out, now we can't retarget people and da da. And there's this whole ad tracking loop law. And now the death of cookies that's happening in 2024. While all of that's happening, I don't need to worry about that because I have the audiences already in warm audiences. It's just easier.

Chad Kodary (43:01.718)
Yep, yep, yep.

I hear that.

Chad Kodary (43:12.126)
Yeah. I think where most people will struggle with that, um, with that one specific strategy is for them to be able to create the videos that actually get engagement so they can create those audiences. I think that's I love this. Hey, this is how it is. This is how it is. We're live.

Rachel Miller (43:22.652)
I'm gonna call honey. I know you were calling me, but I'm on a call So I'll talk to you in just a second. My teenager just came home during the school day. So I'll figure out what's going on in a moment Honey, I'm on a call, please We're live literally

Chad Kodary (43:38.758)
This is amazing. All right, well, I know we are running out of time. Rachel, if somebody wants to reach out to you, if somebody wants to use your software, I know we've spoken a lot and unraveled a lot of things here, where's the best place that they can reach out to you?

Rachel Miller (43:52.732)
I'm Rachel Miller on Facebook. I'm Rachel Miller on Instagram. You can also follow my software company, which is called pagewheel.com. And Chad, thank you for having me. And thank you for your patience with the mom at home.

Chad Kodary (44:02.206)
Of course, of course. Thank you so much. I'm sure we will have you on yet again and see more milestones coming from you. It's always a pleasure to have you on and your blast of energy. So thank you for that. And thank you for educating us and we'll see you on the next one. Bye.

Rachel Miller (44:19.484)
Thank you, Chad. Have a great day.